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Andy Gray fired for offensive behaviour, but does F1 suffer the same problem? // The BBC suffer from similar sexism in their Formula One braodcasts

Published by Mr. C

Sky Sports have sacked football presenter Andy Gray following new evidence of unacceptable behaviour. The move comes after earlier disciplinary action against the presenter regarding remarks made about a female assistant referee.

It's just his imagination.
Credit: Mark Thompson/Getty Images

Today's news is unlikely to make many waves in the world of Formula 1, but one wonders if perhaps it should.

The BBC recently announced ex-F1 driver David Coulthard would partner Martin Brundle in the commentary box for the 2011 season. However, handing Coulthard a microphone for an extended period may turn out to be a risky move, given the driver's previous attitude to women working in the paddock.

In fact it could be argued that the BBC's newly appointed voice of F1, has in the past said things on-air, considerably more controversial than Andy Gray has been discovered saying off-air. No doubt the BBC's policy for handling such circumstances differs from that of Sky Broadcasting, but it's worth noting that Coulthard has long been considered by fans to be bordering on the offensive, when it comes to interaction with members of the opposite sex.

Extrapolate this

Back in 2009 when Coulthard was first signed to the BBC as a pundit, Sidepodcast commented on a conversation between then pitlane reporter Holly Samos and Coulthard at the German Grand Prix. The inference made was that Samos was "propositioning" Coulthard as she knelt down beside him to hold the microphone closer.

The conversation was broadcast on BBC Radio 5Live and although we don't have a copy of the audio or a transcript of the conversation, our immediate responses were captured for posterity. Some sample comments:

  • "dc is disgusting."
  • "i like DC but that did annoy me."
  • "it's important to note that DC is a child."

If you were to wind the clock back further, you might recall David having a similar attitude to other female pitlane reporters, such as Louise Goodman. In the following video Coulthard likens the adjustment of his steering wheel to Louise's body parts.

Transcript of video at 00:40s

Louise Goodman: "Have you been practicing with that pitlane speed limiter?"

David Coulthard: "Yeah, I have just been imagining it's your nipples."

Move with the times

It is important to note that none of these quotes are recent. People's attitude and tolerance to such matters are changing rapidly and there's every possibility that Coulthard's opinions have significantly changed in the interim, or he's at least able to keep them to himself nowadays.

However, Sky seemed more than happy to trawl their archives for compromising evidence against one of their lead presenters - and remember Gray was hung out to dry for comments made off the air.

In a world where football is taking hard look at its perceived attitude to women in the workplace, does Formula 1 really want to be left behind? I for one shall be keen to listen closely to the BBC's F1 commentary lineup this season.

Update: Because of some confusion in the comments, I have included the video evidence that supposedly contributed to Sky ending their relationship with Andy Gray.




  • DC certainly shouldn't have said the things he did on air but it may just be a reflection of the relationship he has off air with Holly and Louise. I think there is a difference between saying something you would normally say to someone in a different setting and having a go at women in general.

  • I think it's slightly different from the Gray debacle, where he was directly questioning the competence of the lineswoman based on her gender.

    DCs schtick is more about sexual innuendo which while probably not to everyone's taste, is not quite on par with saying someone is hopeless at their job because they do not have male genitalia.

  • What a creepy video.

  • I agree with Steven,

    I've always considered DC's comments to Holly and Louise more to do with their personal relationships, as opposed to derogatory views. I certainly never saw anything bad in them.

  • DC certainly shouldn't have said the things he did on air but it may just be a reflection of the relationship he has off air with Holly and Louise. I think there is a difference between saying something you would normally say to someone in a different setting and having a go at women in general.

    That has been the general tone for the coverage of this, certainly on the radio at work today. Andy Gray does have a history of this (as does Richard Keys) but Sky didnt have to trawl the archives, The other incident that has been aired today happened just before christmas I believe.

    I remember the DC incident with Holly, and I also remember my chin hitting the floor. hmmmmm.

  • What a creepy video.

    I agree. Jim Rosenthal should never pop up on a video without a warning

  • Count Von Count? I miss him........

  • I think it's slightly different from the Gray debacle, where he was directly questioning the competence of the lineswoman based on her gender.

    that's exactly what the holly comment was though?

    i can't quote it because i don't have it word for word, but the insinuation was she was a 'working girl', because she was a woman and she bent down in front of him.

    is not quite on par with saying someone is hopeless at their job because they do not have male genitalia.

    i think he was saying exactly that.

  • I remember the DC incident with Holly, and I also remember my chin hitting the floor. hmmmmm.

    my take is, he wouldn't have said it to jake, right?

    there was another comment i can't find the exact quote for along the lines of: "i can answer your questions, so long as my wife doesn't find out".

    again, he wouldn't have said that to ted.

  • What a creepy video.

    But they have a personal relationship so you can't tell what is their normal humour and what is just plain sexist comment.

    I have worked in places where far worse has happened and been said and it was not one-sided by any means

  • my take is, he wouldn't have said it to jake, right?

    again, the relationship is a very different, so i'm not sure it would ever have come up

  • Mr C, I don't think he finds Ted or Jake on the same level of attraction as a female though ;-)

    However, He may make a nipple comment to the guys if it's cold and their shirts don't conceal it well.

  • my take is, he wouldn't have said it to jake, right?

    But if he did, that would have been extremely funny (in my book) :)

  • I think DC has a dodgy sense of humour, and is not to everyone's taste, but I don't think he's offensive. I don't think he would have said those things to either Holly or Louise if he didn't have that sort of relationship with them off air.

    I also don't get any sense of malice or disdain from his comments, just a very juvenile sense of humour. Andy Gray was nasty in his comments and his tone, it wasn't a badly judged joke, he clearly thinks there are jobs a woman should not do, no matter how qualified or capable, just because she is female.

  • DC certainly shouldn't have said the things he did on air but it may just be a reflection of the relationship he has off air with Holly and Louise. I think there is a difference between saying something you would normally say to someone in a different setting and having a go at women in general.

    Well while that may not have been the case then, he's now a representative of the bbc and anything he's expressing on air is broadcast to people who don't know anything about his relationships. I find him pretty disgusting as a man tbh and I hope the bbc don't give him a platform for views like this to be expressed indirectly or otherwise. I think it's never acceptable to make remarks like that to someone in the capacity of a professional sports journalist. If that's what she'll put up with in the bar later, that's a seperate issue.

  • I also don't get any sense of malice or disdain from his comments, just a very juvenile sense of humour. Andy Gray was nasty in his comments and his tone, it wasn't a badly judged joke, he clearly thinks there are jobs a woman should not do, no matter how qualified or capable, just because she is female.

    but there is a time and a place for misjudged humour, and on-air isnt one of them.

    I just think it is ironic that the Asst. Ref had a fantastic game, and she made the toughest decision look easy without a replay or ten, or a judgement by committee.

    I just hope that this hasnt ruined what may be a great career for her......

  • I believe, he'll have been told where the boundaries lie now that he's in the commentary team. So he'll, most probably, not make a comment like that again. He's not a stupid man, so he'll know what he can and can't say.

    I agree with what Lisa (above) has said.

  • I have worked in places far worse has happened and been said and it was not one sided by any means

    Same here. And I speak as the only woman engineer in my workplace.

    Banter is part of life in such an environment - yes, it's occasionally juvenile and laden with innuendoes, and there is a lot of mickey-taking. It's hard to judge these things out of context, especially as what one person finds OK, another won't.

  • my take is, he wouldn't have said it to jake, right?

    I mentioned this on Twitter, but not sure if you saw - DC has made similar-ish comments to/about men before. One example that sticks out in my mind is that he's "run his hands through Jenson's hair", made on Question of Sport not than long ago.

  • I believe, he'll have been told where the boundaries lie now that he's in the commentary team. So he'll, most probably, not make a comment like that again. He's not a stupid man, so he'll know what he can and can't say.

    Hmmm he has said a few things over the past year that have made me raise my eyebrows... Nothing as bad as previous comments though. Maybe they're locking him in with Brundle to keep him away from the ladies? :P

  • I also think there is an important difference between a comment made to someone (as in DC's examples) and comments made about someone.

    I'd also agree that DC would probably make a similar comment to a bloke he had a similar relationship with. I think that's just how he is, but I would bet he's already been told to cut it out.

  • especially as what one person finds OK, another won't.

    i wonder if the fallout at sky hasn't drawn a new line though.

    to me, watching the sky clips on youtube, the first man who came to mind was coulthard.

  • I think it's slightly different from the Gray debacle, where he was directly questioning the competence of the lineswoman based on her gender.

    DCs schtick is more about sexual innuendo which while probably not to everyone's taste, is not quite on par with saying someone is hopeless at their job because they do not have male genitalia.

    I would agree. DC might be crude at time but he's obviously trying to be funny (even if he does fail a bit), he doesn't seem to really question the wisdom of women working in F1.

  • I wonder if the fallout at sky hasn't drawn a new line though.

    I think it's making people consider their attitudes ... so possibly, yes :o)

    I also think there is an important difference between a comment made to someone (as in DC's examples) and comments made about someone.

    I'd agree with that, too.

  • I also think there is an important difference between a comment made to someone (as in DC's examples) and comments made about someone.

    but gray's comment to charlotte (which is what he was fired for), was a comment to someone.

    same as DC, no?

  • same as DC, no?

    No, I think that's a complete misunderstanding of both the context and the nature of DC's relationships with Holly and Louise

  • No, I think that's a complete misunderstanding of both the context and the nature of DC's relationships with Holly and Louise

    You're being broadcast on the television! I don't see how that's relevant.

  • No, I think that's a complete misunderstanding of both the context and the nature of DC's relationships with Holly and Louise

    a) you're speculating, you have no idea what their relationship is like.

    b) you have no idea what gray's relationship with jackson is either?

    how can you call between the two?

  • After watching the latest video of Gray I don't see it as a sackable offence, I mean he is being a dirty old codger sure but I've seen a lot worse. It makes me think that unless a complaint was made against him at the time which it clearly wasn't then News Corp have simply trawled through the archives looking for an excuse to get rid of him after he decided to sue the News of the World.

    "Mr Gray, 55, earns his living from the satellite broadcaster but is willing to doggedly pursue legal action against News Group Newspapers, which is run by Mr Murdoch's son James, who is also the non-executive chairman of BSkyB.

    Documents filed into court in October, seen by The Independent, show just how serious the commentator is in seeking damages. Represented by one of the most powerful media law firms, Schillings, Mr Gray has secured a consent order to obtain from the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, disclosure of documents relating to Mulcaire's activities."

    Still, it's his own fault for being unprofessional, he gave them the ammo they needed to get rid of him

  • You're being broadcast on the television! I don't see how that's relevant.

    also a fair point.

  • but gray's comment to charlotte (which is what he was fired for), was a comment to someone.

    No. He didn't say she didn't know the offside rule. He said she couldn't because she was a woman. Had he criticised her ability like any other ref it would be fine

  • a) you're speculating, you have no idea what their relationship is like.

    as is everyone in this thread

    b) you have no idea what gray's relationship with jackson is either?

    surely the relationship between gray and the lineswoman is the more significant one?

  • No. He didn't say she didn't know the offside rule

    no, no. wrong lady.

  • No. He didn't say she didn't know the offside rule. He said she couldn't because she was a woman. Had he criticised her ability like any other ref it would be fine

    Absolutely, if after the game, she'd made some dodgy calls then saying she shouldn't do the job again because she's incompetent is fine. It's not fine to say, she shouldn't be the assistant referee because she's a woman.

  • surely the relationship between gray and the lineswoman is the more significant one?

    why?

    he only got disciplinary for that comment, he got fired for his comment to charlotte jackson.

  • why?

    he only got disciplinary for that comment, he got fired for his comment to charlotte jackson.

    who's charlotte jackson?

  • for comparison, dc's comment to louise verses andy gray's comments to ms. jackson here: www.youtube.com/w…tch?v=lCBxW-nUPus

    maybe i didn't make this clear enough in the post.

  • who's charlotte jackson?

    She presents on Sky Sports News and sometimes Monday Night Football...

  • She presents on Sky Sports News and sometimes Monday Night Football...

    oh right

    for comparison, dc's comment to louise verses andy gray's comments to ms. jackson here: www.youtube.com/w…tch?v=lCBxW-nUPus

    maybe i didn't make this clear enough in the post.

    more than anything else, that's just being idiotic, but coulthard's comment never struck me as that bad

  • I'd liken it to the following:

    If one of my colleagues (whom I knew well, and had a good working rapport with) made a comment about, for example, it was my turn to make the tea as that was what I was good at, I'd take it as a joke (and reply that it was because of the practice, as none of them ever did it).

    If it was an outsider, who didn't know me at all, either making the comment about me to another colleague or to my face, I'd consider it a bit offensive.

    Mr C, in that clip, it's pretty clear Andy Gray's comments are not to Ms Jackson's liking; she seemed a bit weary of it, really.

    I'm wondering if my borderline for such behaviour is possibly a bit low, as my response to him would've been "no problem, it's not like I'm going to encounter anything down there".

  • i have embedded the andy gray / charlotte jackson clip in the post above to make things slightly more clear. i had assumed people knew why andy had been let go - it wasn't because of the comments he made about a linesman.

  • i have embedded the andy gray / charlotte jackson clip in the post above to make things slightly more clear. i had assumed people knew why andy had been let go - it wasn't because of the comments he made about a linesman.

    Well.... was it not? If sky were so bothered at the time they'd have dealt with it then.... It's only in light of recent remarks that that's been looked at?

  • it wasn't because of the comments he made about a linesman.

    Sexism Mr C...? You realise she's not a chap

  • linesman/ linesperson?

  • Sexism Mr C...? You realise she's not a chap

    They're called Assistant Referee's anyway these days...

  • Well.... was it not? If sky were so bothered at the time they'd have dealt with it then.... It's only in light of recent remarks that that's been looked at?

    The Gray/Jackson incident was only revealed in the last 24 hours...

  • linesman/ linesperson?

    Are they officially called referee's assistants now?

  • Sexism Mr C...? You realise she's not a chap

    It's normal to use those versions of the words. For example fireman, you wouldn't expect to change.

  • They're called Assistant Referee's anyway these days...

    ah-ha. i learn.

  • The Gray/Jackson incident was only revealed in the last 24 hours...

    All seems very convenient...

  • It's normal to use those versions of the words. For example fireman, you wouldn't expect to change.

    I know.

  • The Gray/Jackson incident was only revealed in the last 24 hours...

    agreed, but it is the crux of my post. given that if sky are prepaid to archive trawl, are the bbc? or does everyone get a clean slate for 2011?

  • Lins_Rumbold - Mr C, in that clip, it's pretty clear Andy Gray's comments are not to Ms Jackson's liking; she seemed a bit weary of it, really.

    Actually she laughs at it, see screencap below. Let's just ban all flirting in the workplace and be done with it.

    img821.imageshack…/5345/nonamec.jpg

  • All seems very convenient...

    What I mean is that I think his comments are a disgrace and that if I ran a television channel I wouldn't want that man representing me. He's clearly a liability waiting to happen. However, I really wonder that anything would have come of the video clip had this referee business not surfaced this week.

  • agreed, but it is the crux of my post. given that if sky are prepaid to archive trawl, are the bbc?

    Oh golly. I'm not sure I agree with this trend

  • agreed, but it is the crux of my post. given that if sky are prepaid to archive trawl, are the bbc? or does everyone get a clean slate for 2011?

    I think everyone gets a clean slate and the archives only get crawled to build a case in the event of a new incident

  • Mr C, in that clip, it's pretty clear Andy Gray's comments are not to Ms Jackson's liking; she seemed a bit weary of it, really.

    but how do you know what louise's reaction is? she's not even on camera?

  • Ok, Gray's comment to Charlotte is much closer to a DC type comment. If he'd just said that, probably no-one would have taken much notice but that coming to light after the weekend's comments clearly suggest a pattern to the pair's behaviour.

    In an ideal world, someone would have pointed out to Gray that CJ doesn't look overly impressed (or she would have responded like Lins suggests), but you ave to wonder if maybe AG/RK have made similar comments about/to someone who happened to be in the gallery at the weekend and has just had enough?

  • Andrew, your eyes are better than mine! Well spotted.

  • Ok, Gray's comment to Charlotte is much closer to a DC type comment. If he'd just said that, probably no-one would have taken much notice but that coming to light after the weekend's comments clearly suggest a pattern to the pair's behaviour.

    and i'm suggesting that there may be a pattern to coulthard's too (see the point about holly).

  • In an ideal world, someone would have pointed out to Gray that CJ doesn't look overly impressed (or she would have responded like Lins suggests), but you ave to wonder if maybe AG/RK have made similar comments about/to someone who happened to be in the gallery at the weekend and has just had enough?

    Why should someone have to put up with that at work at all? If a colleague said that to me, I would probably tell them to give it a rest before taking it further but tbh I don't see why I should have to. Behave in an appropriate manner in the workplace.

  • I work in a male-dominated industry.

    I have a lot of women as colleagues, they have every opportunity available to them and are treated absolutely fairly and equally.

    If comments like what Andy Gray said about the lineswoman were made they would not be tolerated.

    However the Charlotte Jackson clip or the DC clips would be laughed off as silly banter - but also considered inappropriate.

    I'm not sure how DC will do but as a commentator the amount of words he has to say will mean he will get into trouble at some point... whether that will be sexist, who knows?

    For reference, I have a clip of a Soccer AM piece on Lucy Pinder filled with innuendo from Tim Lovejoy. Do you consider this sexist?

    www.youtube.com/w…p;feature=related

  • Oh golly. I'm not sure I agree with this trend

    Don't make sexist remarks on the television then....

  • but how do you know what louise's reaction is? she's not even on camera?

    We have seen how those two have behaved before and since on numerous occasions. A lot of people wee convinced they had a very close realtionship which is probably the most polite way of saying it in a family friendly manner

  • However the Charlotte Jackson clip or the DC clips would be laughed off as silly banter - but also considered inappropriate.

    ok, but that is what he was fired for (as i understand it). so if andy gray was fired for that, why should dc also be fired? if that is the line now, then dc is miles over it.

  • ok, but that is what he was fired for (as i understand it). so if andy gray was fired for that, why should dc also be fired? if that is the line now, then dc is miles over it.

    I dunno. I guess I am saying that the linesman stuff is much worse because it is predjudiced that she could not do her job because she was a woman.

  • ok, but that is what he was fired for (as i understand it). so if andy gray was fired for that, why should dc also be fired? if that is the line now, then dc is miles over it.

    Add EJ's fawning over Lee at Suzuka and on the F1 forum the week before to that as well.

  • ok, but that is what he was fired for (as i understand it). so if andy gray was fired for that, why should dc also be fired? if that is the line now, then dc is miles over it.

    You can't have Sky setting rules for the BBC. Imagine Rupert Murdoch as the moral arbiter for the free world. The big question is how can Andy Gray be fired for what he does while many of Murdoch's publications pollute the world with content that is far more offensive.

  • Do you consider this sexist?

    it doesn't matter what i think. the key question to me is (and i'll repeat it from the post):

    In a world where football is taking hard look at its perceived attitude to women in the workplace, does Formula 1 really want to be left behind?

    if the answer to that question is f1 need to take a look at itself, then it has to look at coulthard first.

    my opinion on sexism in the workplace does not matter, if line has been set, has dc crossed it?

  • What RubberGoat said above (in both his posts) - I agree with.

    That clip is puerile, but I guess the target market wouldn't understand anything more complicated ...

  • Imagine Rupert Murdoch as the moral arbiter for the free world.

    Deary me nooooo......

  • I dunno. I guess I am saying that the linesman stuff is much worse because it is predjudiced that she could not do her job because she was a woman.

    Thing is constant behaviour like in the video clip can end up with something close to constructive dismissal.

  • Why should someone have to put up with that at work at all? If a colleague said that to me, I would probably tell them to give it a rest before taking it further but tbh I don't see why I should have to. Behave in an appropriate manner in the workplace.

    They shouldn't, I absolutely agree. I also see what Mr c is saying about not seeing Holly's reaction, although Louise was quite happy to shut herself in a cupboard with DC in that 'goodbye' video from ITV, she definitely played it up at times with him, in my opinion anyway.

  • if line has been set, has dc crossed it?

    I think the trouble is the position of the line is entirely subjective and individual ...

  • Do you consider this sexist?

    it doesn't matter what i think

    Yes it does. That clip (I assume) was considered OK to go on TV... while it's admittedly quite funny it's not exactly tasteful!

  • Louise was quite happy to shut herself in a cupboard with DC in that 'goodbye' video from ITV, she definitely played it up at times with him, in my opinion anyway.

    yep fail call.

    if it helps, i don't recall holly going near DC again, but maybe she did, i've no idea.

  • I think the trouble is the position of the line is entirely subjective and individual ...

    I think when you're on the television representing an organisation such as the bbc, the bar should be set at the highest common denominator.

  • Yes it does. That clip (I assume) was considered OK to go on TV... while it's admittedly quite funny it's not exactly tasteful!

    the woman in the video is there to sell herself, she's not on the payroll, she's not going to lose her job if she complains to the wrong person. i see no relevance to this conversation?

  • yep fail call.

    if it helps, i don't recall holly going near DC again, but maybe she did, i've no idea.

    that they are on different shows probably means their on air paths don't cross that often...

  • I think when you're on the television representing an organisation such as the bbc, the bar should be set at the highest common denominator.

    That didn't really make the kind of sense it did in my head. But I mean if we're even debating whether it's sexist or not, I think it shouldn't be the sort of thing that's being broadcast.

  • Although old, this article from Louise Goodman might be relevant.

    www.guardian.co.u…ormulaone.comment

  • Holly spent years with Chris Evans and his mob so I can't imagine Dc could upset her with one comment

  • In a world where football is taking hard look at its perceived attitude to women in the workplace, does Formula 1 really want to be left behind?

    No, I don't think it does but I'm not sure DC is the biggest barrier to that. I'm not even sure he's the biggest barrier on the BBC.

  • my opinion on sexism in the workplace does not matter, if line has been set, has dc crossed it?

    Yes and no. But I see this post as an unecessary criticism of DC personally, when he hasn't had the chance to fill his own boots in the role yet.

    Remember Red Bull were supposed to be the happy fun team and DC made these remarks as a paid employee of said team - taking the idea too far of course. But he never did anything like that as a McLaren employee and it could just have been an overreaction to coming away from such a straight laced environment...

  • Add EJ's fawning over Lee at Suzuka and on the F1 forum the week before to that as well.

    didn't see it, but absolutely wouldn't surprise me.

  • the woman in the video is there to sell herself, she's not on the payroll, she's not going to lose her job if she complains to the wrong person. i see no relevance to this conversation?

    She's there to sell herself but not get humiliated by sexist jokes?

  • yep fail call.

    i meant 'fair', not 'fail'. oops

  • Yes and no. But I see this post as an unecessary criticism of DC personally, when he hasn't had the chance to fill his own boots in the role yet.

    true, but i said that at the bottom of the post.

  • Remember Red Bull were supposed to be the happy fun team and DC made these remarks as a paid employee of said team - t

    That is an interesting point because DC has always been good at reflecting his employer. At McLaren he was seen as squeeky clean and a bit plastic then he went to Red Bull and changed completely

  • RubberGoat25/01/2011 at 21:46:30

    the woman in the video is there to sell herself, she's not on the payroll, she's not going to lose her job if she complains to the wrong person. i see no relevance to this conversation?

    She's there to sell herself but not get humiliated by sexist jokes?

    I think there's a difference between agreeing to go on a show well known for that kind of tone, as a guest with something to promote, and having to work with someone with that attitude on a regular basis.

    I don't like the clip, and don't watch the show, but she had a lot more choice in the matter.

  • I don't like the clip, and don't watch the show, but she had a lot more choice in the matter.

    agreed.

  • I think there's a difference between agreeing to go on a show well known for that kind of tone, as a guest with something to promote, and having to work with someone with that attitude on a regular basis.

    Agreed. If you're a glamour model and you're going on a late night football chat show, really you know why you've been invited.

    If her newspaper editor spoke like that, I'd think it was very different.

  • If anyone cares, the other bloke Richard Keys has been revealed to be saying more sexist things: www.mirrorfootbal…rticle682105.html

    I think this Keys/Gray thing has something quite sinister behind it...

  • I think this Keys/Gray thing has something quite sinister behind it...

    in that they are sinister, or the way archived material is being dug up?

  • For reference, I have a clip of a Soccer AM piece on Lucy Pinder filled with innuendo from Tim Lovejoy. Do you consider this sexist?

    She is a Page 3 girl, stuff like this is par for the course and in this clip I think it is clear Lovejoy knows it and plays up to it and his audience.

  • in that they are sinister, or the way archived material is being dug up?

    In that archived material is being dug up and plonked on youtube...

  • In that archived material is being dug up and plonked on youtube..

    just for the record, i didn't upload the coulthard footage. just so ya know ;)

  • In that archived material is being dug up and plonked on youtube...

    Someone wants them out, but realises they can't fire a 20 year partnership easily. They must have realised the public would accept the change easier if they were made to leave in disgrace...

  • In a world where football is taking hard look at its perceived attitude to women in the workplace, does Formula 1 really want to be left behind?

    I think Formula 1 is years ahead of football. Not necessarily in terms of drivers but in other fields like engineering, certainly.

  • I can't even understand what's going on in that video...?

  • Add EJ's fawning over Lee at Suzuka and on the F1 forum the week before to that as well.

    That was far worse than DC has ever said. By some margin IMO.

  • That was far worse than DC has ever said. By some margin IMO.

    i'm almost frightened to ask.

  • If anyone cares, the other bloke Richard Keys has been revealed to be saying more sexist things: www.mirrorfootbal…rticle682105.html

    Sorry to break it to people but this is how a lot of men talk to each other, an episode of sex in the city is just as bad.. if not worse..

  • I can't even understand what's going on in that video...?

    They're talking about the girlfriend of the guy on the left I assume?

  • just for the record, i didn't upload the coulthard footage. just so ya know ;)

    I'm watching you ;)

    Someone wants them out, but realises they can't fire a 20 year partnership easily. They must have realised the public would accept the change easier if they were made to leave in disgrace...

    Yeah. I do agree.

  • In that archived material is being dug up and plonked on youtube..

    i'm curious how far people would go back, with archived footage. say something was dug up from the 80's, surely people will accept times have changed, right?

  • Aaaaaaaaand goodbye Richard Keyes.

    www.youtube.com/w…;feature=youtu.be

  • I think the 12sec clip in the post isn't anything like enough time to ascertain what was going on at the time, what the atmosphere was, what the banter level was.

  • They're talking about the girlfriend of the guy on the left I assume?

    He doesn't seem that bothered about it... I don't see what the issue is here.

  • i'm almost frightened to ask.

    general attitude as opposed to anything specific

    If anyone cares, the other bloke Richard Keys has been revealed to be saying more sexist things: www.mirrorfootbal…rticle682105.html

    I think this Keys/Gray thing has something quite sinister behind it...

    Kind of like what you hear on the tube/train or the pub between random men

  • Aaaaaaaaand goodbye Richard Keyes.

    Although this video is more mates down the pub banter than saying a woman can't do a man's job. Still, constantly referring to a woman as 'it' is not nice.

  • Aaaaaaaaand goodbye Richard Keyes.

    who keeps all this off-camera footage?

  • Andrew25/01/2011 at 21:59:23

    If anyone cares, the other bloke Richard Keys has been revealed to be saying more sexist things: www.mirrorfootbal…rticle682105.html

    Sorry to break it to people but this is how a lot of men talk to each other, an episode of sex in the city is just as bad.. if not worse..

    The difference of course being that that show was a scripted fictional drama. I'd say the comparison to Loose Women is closer but that show makes my eyes bleed anyway.

  • who keeps all this off-camera footage?

    A guy who has a grudge against Keys and Gray and fancies a nice sale of these items to the press.

    #notmehonest

  • who keeps all this off-camera footage?

    someone with a grudge?

  • A guy who has a grudge against Keys and Gray and fancies a nice sale of these items to the press.

    Des Lynam I reckon. ;)

  • I'd say the comparison to Loose Women is closer but that show makes my eyes bleed anyway.

    surely they're mean about other people and guests? not say the cameraman?

    i don't watch, i'm just guessing.

  • Someone wants them out, but realises they can't fire a 20 year partnership easily. They must have realised the public would accept the change easier if they were made to leave in disgrace...

    Agreed. This is digging up the dirt because someone wants them out for unrelated reasons. Perhaps the point is, the dirt shouldn't be there in the first place. But this is football and this sort of stuff is far more common in that environment surely.

  • Des Lynam I reckon.

    :)

    wonder if legard has a similar stash?

  • wonder if legard has a similar stash?

    Bet ya James Allen does ;)

  • Agreed. This is digging up the dirt because someone wants them out for unrelated reasons. Perhaps the point is, the dirt shouldn't be there in the first place. But this is football and this sort of stuff is far more common in that environment surely.

    Banter like there about the guys girlfriend is surely pretty irrelevant. Maybe if I were her, I'd be annoyed at him but that's not about a colleague nor is it general prejudice like about the referee.

  • Bet ya James Allen does ;)

    ...as he sits in a darkened room, sniggering quietly while he pets his black cat across the head

  • The difference of course being that that show was a scripted fictional drama. I'd say the comparison to Loose Women is closer but that show makes my eyes bleed anyway.

    I remember a clip with Russell Brand on Loose Women, he got eaten alive!

    wonder if legard has a similar stash?

    Haha!

  • Yes, I was comparing that to the mirror clip RG linked to.

    I think Sky are sufffering their own little Jonathon Ross/Russell Brand moment here, and given that new stuff keeps popping up, I would guess Keys and Gray have upset a few people who are getting the boot in now!

  • Surely only a limited number of people have access to un-edited off air Sky Sports camera footage? Almost make you wonder if it has been sanctioned from above..

  • Mr C, in that clip, it's pretty clear Andy Gray's comments are not to Ms Jackson's liking; she seemed a bit weary of it, really.

    I think this may sum up the real reason why Andy Gray has been fired; it's not so much the individual comments as his colleagues feeling they are no longer able to work with him.

    I don't think DC is in the same boat - have any of his on-screen remarks been met with anything more serious than a "stop being so childish" look?

  • We'll at least Gray or DC weren't (as far as we know) drunk and hitting on a report like what happened a few years ago at a Jets / Patriots Monday Night Football broadcast.

    I think the problem with Gray, DC, EJ and many others is that people have never told them to shut up or be responsible for what they say. Every time they offend someone, it gets passed off as offending one of the "little people." It's unfortunate that people like Louise and Holly have to deal with this. If I was the head of BBC, I would of barred DC from the cameras and not bother interviewing him. If he is going to treat an employee like that, then he doesn't deserve the publicity. If I was ahead of Red Bull, I would of had DC apologize to the Louise on camera. If he didn't like it, then the test driver is getting the seat for weekend.

    For me, it's more than just a human decency issue. Whether it is the BBC or Red Bull, these guys get paid to not only do their job but also represent that company. What D.C.'s comment to Louise says to me is, "Red Bull is a frat house. Make sure when you have a drink with them you better make sure they didn't slip you a roofie."

    I think this is a hidden problem in F1. Unfortunately it will not be dealt with until their is a female driver or a high profile who goes toe to toe with the guys on the grid. I want to see someone like Simona de Silvestro on the grid but fear what she might go through. All I can say is I have a friend of mine who specializes in sexual harassment lawsuits. He would have a field day in the F1 paddock.

  • I don't think DC is in the same boat - have any of his on-screen remarks been met with anything more serious than a "stop being so childish" look?

    holly was on the radio.

    with all due respect, while you may be correct, you have no way of drawing that conclusion.

  • Kind of like what you hear on the tube/train or the pub between random men

    Yeah you'd hear it in many a pub across the land every night of the week. And let's not pretend only men say stuff like this, some of the rudest sexist things I've ever heard were uttered by women, again often banter, and certainly not always in retaliation, admittedly this was in a warehouse where the sophistication of the workforce was not always the highest. :) But what happens in such places isn't really relevant to most other lines of work.

    This is about professional TV production. If you have those opinions they shouldn't cross into coverage of a sport. Walk over that marker into the studio and you have to have your TV veneer on.

  • I remember a clip with Russell Brand on Loose Women, he got eaten alive!

    Some might suggest he deserves it

  • In a world where football is taking hard look at its perceived attitude to women in the workplace, does Formula 1 really want to be left behind?

    I'm not yet convinced football is taking a hard look at sexism so much as one station not being comfortable with one of its staff members. Motor sport, in doing things like setting up commissions to look at why it's so male-dominated despite being nominally a mixed-gender sport, may even be ahead of football (which insists on keeping the genders separate).

  • with all due respect, while you may be correct, you have no way of drawing that conclusion.

    I certainly can draw that conclusion because I asked about the meeting of on-screen remarks. Off-screen is obviously another matter entirely and I have no information on that.

    Also, you are quite right about the Holly bit being on the radio making judging reactions "impossible" instead of "extremely difficult".

  • I think the problem with Gray, DC, EJ and many others is that people have never told them to shut up or be responsible for what they say. Every time they offend someone, it gets passed off as offending one of the "little people." It's unfortunate that people like Louise and Holly have to deal with this.

    The other thing is that Gray, EJ, DC, and others have all grown up in an atmosphere where it was tolerated if not encouraged, long before recent drives to equalise things. The footballers in the locker room, and the racing guys around mechanics etc. Neither profession are known to be leading the world in anti-sexist attitudes. I think perhaps sometimes people from such backgrounds (who aren't open enough to change) will misjudge what they can say.

  • just for the record, i didn't upload the coulthard footage. just so ya know ;)

    I don't think anyone here is worried about you digging up stuff, Mr C - it's not in your nature to be vindictive towards people at Sidepodcast. The worry is about employers using archives as a lever for... ...other agenda items.

  • This is an interesting conversation. And I agree I also thought of DC when this was first mentioned. I do think that this is innuendo from DC and that it is different from what the Sky people were saying in some respects. But I still think it should be strongly discouraged. As a reminder Martin Brundle got in trouble for using a particular term to describe the people who were laying the tarmac a few years ago. A word that had been in quite common usage in public but was a difficult term. People have to remember that they are on television.

    Some people have brought up that it is different the other way around and, for example, the wonderful Jo Brand won a British Comedy award and one of the clips they showed was from QI. When the question was, "What is the ideal man", she replied, "a dead one". The subtext is everything in this debate of course. There she is parodying a kind of humour but here these are people trying to celebrate the best of sporting achievement. There's a time and place for these things and when you're presenting football or Formula 1 you have to be mindful of the audience.

  • i'm curious how far people would go back, with archived footage. say something was dug up from the 80's, surely people will accept times have changed, right?

    Yes. Except for extremely stupid people. Unfortunately some extremely stupid people have power :(

  • I'd say the comparison to Loose Women is closer but that show makes my eyes bleed anyway.

    Not to mention my ears - where do they get those hysterical audience screams from?!?

  • Someone was earlier talking about DC saying "I hope my wife doesn't find out" when talking with Holly or Lee or Louise. I can't find the reference.

    The question none of us know about their working relationship is whether in the exact reverse roles would the response have been "I hope my husband/partner doesn't find out".

  • other agenda items.

    For those who don't know there has been a lot of suggestion that Andy Gray, who was one of the two people who had the Police Complaints Commission reopen the phone hacking inquiry because his phone had allegedly been hacked into by the News Of the World, did get the investigation reopened and the former editor of the News Of The World (Andy Coulson) who was David Cameron's Press Secretary resigned on the back of it. A few days later Andy has been sacked by his employer who is owned by the same person who owns the News of the World. This may or may not be connected - it is alleged.

  • Alianora La Canta25/01/2011 at 22:35:08

    I'd say the comparison to Loose Women is closer but that show makes my eyes bleed anyway.

    Not to mention my ears - where do they get those hysterical audience screams from?!?

    The chairs are wired to the mains electric.....it's the only explanation

  • I don't want to be a "it's better in my country" kind of guy, but aren't the British public a little bit too PC? Perhaps Key and Gray have taken it a little bit too far, but I've never understood why the BBC (and ITV) have had to apologise for drivers swearing on TV, such as during pre-podium preparations when the cameras are on the drivers just after they get out of their cars.

    You can curse and swear on Irish tv without any problem, and I like it that way. People are able to express their opinions properly without being bound by PC bubblewrap. Our Taoiseach (PM) was mildly accused of saying something sexist in the parliament a few months ago (he said something along the lines of "Will you control her once in a while" to another party leader, 'her' being a female member of that party) but no-one batted an eyelid. We have better things to be doing with our time, such as paying off our €100bn+ national debt.

    I do think Gray were out of order, but I don't see why the sideline reporter should be sanctioned for saying she was a "looker". Is it a crime to compliment now? Ridiculous.

    [I might be totally missing the point here, but I wanted to say this anyway!]

  • This may or may not be connected - it is alleged.

    I believed that may have been the case until the Keys video came out...

  • I think the problem with Gray, DC, EJ and many others is that people have never told them to shut up or be responsible for what they say.

    This is an excellent point. If someone with sufficient authority told them their behaviour was unacceptable, they'd soon stop doing it (at least around the people who had indicated it was unacceptable - and once one person succeeded, others would follow).

  • I don't want to be a "it's better in my country" kind of guy, but aren't the British public a little bit too PC? Perhaps Key and Gray have taken it a little bit too far, but I've never understood why the BBC (and ITV) have had to apologise for drivers swearing on TV, such as during pre-podium preparations when the cameras are on the drivers just after they get out of their cars.

    What does swearing have to do with being sexist?

  • Does all of this discussion mean Sir Stirling Moss is never going to be interviewed again?

    I've never understood why the BBC (and ITV) have had to apologise for drivers swearing on TV, such as during pre-podium preparations when the cameras are on the drivers just after they get out of their cars.

    Always struck me as odd.

  • [I might be totally missing the point here, but I wanted to say this anyway!]

    to a point i agree, but to me the debate isn't - "this is what i think and this is why i think it", but rather "this event has occurred and the fallout is thus, how does this affect f1".

  • I don't want to be a "it's better in my country" kind of guy, but aren't the British public a little bit too PC? Perhaps Key and Gray have taken it a little bit too far, but I've never understood why the BBC (and ITV) have had to apologise for drivers swearing on TV, such as during pre-podium preparations when the cameras are on the drivers just after they get out of their cars.

    Presumably your 'Middle Ireland' isn't like our 'Middle England'. :)

    I do think Gray were out of order, but I don't see why the sideline reporter should be sanctioned for saying she was a "looker". Is it a crime to compliment now? Ridiculous.

    I don't think that was on, tbh.

  • What does swearing have to do with being sexist?

    Don't know about anyone else, but I find much of UK media quite oppressive and conservative

  • Don't know about anyone else, but I find much of UK media quite oppressive and conservative

    However, Gray needs a serious amount of kop on

  • Actually talking about swearing, didn't DC say he was going to "kick seven shades of sh#t out of the little bast#rd" to Louise about Massa.

    Also, not to keep having a go at DC, I believe Holly or Louise were having their overalls auctioned off an DC wrote "DC was here" then an arrow to the crotch area. It's just his sense of humour.

  • I do think Gray were out of order, but I don't see why the sideline reporter should be sanctioned for saying she was a "looker". Is it a crime to compliment now? Ridiculous.

    Andy "Four Phones" Burton I reckon was punished at because Gray and Keys had been caught and punished before...

  • to a point i agree, but to me the debate isn't - "this is what i think and this is why i think it", but rather "this event has occurred and the fallout is thus, how does this affect f1".

    I didn't get that impression at all. Seems more like "how does this affect DC's career prospects".

  • Don't know about anyone else, but I find much of UK media quite oppressive and conservative

    In a lot of areas perhaps. I don't really have a high tolerance for discriminatory comments on the television.

  • I didn't get that impression at all. Seems more like "how does this affect DC's career prospects".

    Also, do we start another crusade about Brundle's comments in Canada 2008?

  • I don't want to be a "it's better in my country" kind of guy, but aren't the British public a little bit too PC? Perhaps Key and Gray have taken it a little bit too far, but I've never understood why the BBC (and ITV) have had to apologise for drivers swearing on TV, such as during pre-podium preparations when the cameras are on the drivers just after they get out of their cars.

    Some people take the watershed really, really seriously in the UK. I take it quite seriously but realise that there are times when it is unavoidable for some people.

  • I didn't get that impression at all. Seems more like "how does this affect DC's career prospects".

    hmm, maybe i should've put a poll in there.

    i mean the title really does say that word-for-word. my assumption was coulthard would be the first to fall, eddie though could easily go too by all accounts.

  • Does all of this discussion mean Sir Stirling Moss is never going to be interviewed again?

    Probably not. When he talks about "chasing crumpet", he always prefaces it with something like, "back in my day", so everyone is clear he's simply being nostalgic and not trying to be rude about anyone.

  • Probably not. When he talks about "chasing crumpet", he always prefaces it with something like, "back in my day", so everyone is clear he's simply being nostalgic and not trying to be rude about anyone.

    It only takes a couple of idiots to start a campaign. Remember only 2 people complained about the Brand/Ross shindig until the Daily Mail got a hold of it

  • What does swearing have to do with being sexist?

    Because both are about boundaries on what can and cannot be said. They're not directly comparable cases, but some things are common to both issues.

  • Because both are about boundaries on what can and cannot be said. They're not directly comparable cases, but some things are common to both issues.

    For a variety of reasons that probably aren't relevant or interesting, I'm not at all offended by swearing, sexism makes my blood boil.

  • i mean the title really does say that word-for-word. my assumption was coulthard would be the first to fall, eddie though could easily go too by all accounts.

    It is a shame the post doesn't ask that question and instead concentrates on everything DC may have done wrong over the last decade.

  • sexism makes my blood boil.

    sounds dangerous

  • i mean the title really does say that word-for-word. my assumption was coulthard would be the first to fall, eddie though could easily go too by all accounts.

    I don't know, I would be willing to bet Brundle has lost a few friends in the last year or so. And we know he has form for speaking before he thinks

  • I don't know, I would be willing to bet Brundle has lost a few friends in the last year or so.

    how so?

  • It is a shame the post doesn't ask that question and instead concentrates on everything DC may have done wrong over the last decade.

    fair point. like i said, he was the very first man who came to mind when the sky sports thing blew up and there are many, many cases in the comments accusing DC of being a letch and perverted. apologies if the post was poor in that respect.

  • Also, do we start another crusade about Brundle's comments in Canada 2008?

    We don't, unless Martin starts saying similar stuff again (which is unlikely since he seems to learn from his verbal bloopers). Can't speak for the tabloids though.

  • It only takes a couple of idiots to start a campaign. Remember only 2 people complained about the Brand/Ross shindig until the Daily Mail got a hold of it

    Oh that's something that annoys me, the modern trend of snowballing complaints. Complaining because others are complaining. People ringing in to complain about something they only caught 3rd or 4th hand..

  • It only takes a couple of idiots to start a campaign. Remember only 2 people complained about the Brand/Ross shindig until the Daily Mail got a hold of it

    True...

  • sounds dangerous

    I just don't think it's something that anyone should have to put up with. Particularly at work. I don't see how it's in any way the same issue as swearing on tv.

  • I know the woman that investigated the complaints against Martin, she is a massive F1 fan and thought it was all a bit pathetic. In the end they just told him not to do it again.

  • I just don't think it's something that anyone should have to put up with.

    Agree.

  • Leigh O'Gorman25/01/2011 at 22:56:36

    I don't know, I would be willing to bet Brundle has lost a few friends in the last year or so.

    how so?

    A couple of reports in the press around the commentary situation before the changes were announced gave me the impression he may have had the attitude that he was slightly more important than he really is. Might just be me though.

  • A couple of reports in the press around the commentary situation before the changes were announced gave me the impression he may have had the attitude that he was slightly more important than he really is. Might just be me though.

    Not sure. I took them with a pinch of salt to be honest.

  • fair point. like i said, he was the very first man who came to mind when the sky sports thing blew up and there are many, many cases in the comments accusing DC of being a letch and perverted. apologies if the post was poor in that respect.

    Yeah and that's fair enough. I like to think that he's going step up and sort himself out for the big gig, at least until he proves otherwise (quite likely but I'd prefer to let it happen first).

  • The difference between DC and Grey is that DC was making a joke, albeit sexist, whereas Grey was apparently making improper advances.

  • A couple of reports in the press around the commentary situation before the changes were announced gave me the impression he may have had the attitude that he was slightly more important than he really is

    I think he is the most important part of the BBC coverage and he and they know it. When BBC were awarded the coverage the highest items on every list I saw of what people would like from it were The Chain and Brundle.

  • The difference between DC and Grey is that DC was making a joke, albeit sexist, whereas Grey was apparently making improper advances.

    side-by-side, watching the two videos above i cannot see that difference. maybe that just me.

  • side-by-side, watching the two videos above i cannot see that difference. maybe that just me.

    LPG says: - DC's comment was about what he was imagining in his head.

    Grey's comment was "do this to me".

    DC's comment makes him the butt of the joke and submissive in the conversation.

    Grey's comment/actions puts him in a dominant position.

    Also, Grey apparently has a long track record of abusing his position.

  • The difference between DC and Grey is that DC was making a joke, albeit sexist, whereas Grey was apparently making improper advances.

    Let's be honest, we watch F1 because of the drama factor. If there weren't "drivers will be drivers" moments, we wouldn't find it quite as entertaining. If someone's the employee of a TV station, they should keep that in check. Does anyone else really see the scope for DC to make naughty jokes in the commentary box?

  • DC's comment makes him the butt of the joke and submissive in the conversation.

    Grey's comment/actions puts him in a dominant position.

    i strongly disagree.

    Also, Grey apparently has a long track record of abusing his position.

    i think i've just argued that of dc haven't i? somewhere up there ^^

  • Does anyone else really see the scope for DC to make naughty jokes in the commentary box?

    he's doing pre-race stuff too i think, but who knows.

  • DC's comment makes him the butt of the joke and submissive in the conversation.

    What are you supposed to say to that though?? How is she in control of that discussion.... People make comments that make me uncomfortable a lot at work and there really isn't anything to be done about it other than a weak smile and moving quickly on....

  • Does anyone else really see the scope for DC to make naughty jokes in the commentary box?

    Ted better watch out :D

  • What are you supposed to say to that though?? How is she in control of that discussion.... People make comments that make me uncomfortable a lot at work and there really isn't anything to be done about it other than a weak smile and moving quickly on....

    True, neither LPG or I are condoning the comment, but at no point does DC ask to compare Louise's nipples with his steering wheel buttons.

    DC is more Carry On... than anything else

    LPG adds that having been on the receiving end of both types of comments that there is a world of difference.

  • LPG adds that having been on the receiving end of both types of comments that there is a world of difference.

    I very much agree.

  • Perhaps, if DC was not fired at the time for his comments, he should be given a chance in this new, more responsible role. I remember the BBC once went out on a very thin branch when it hired James Hunt, who was a notorious womanizer. Unless there was some backlash from DCs previous comments, perhaps they were taken as a joke by those involved, despite how they seemed to those watching.

  • Perhaps, if DC was not fired at the time for his comments, he should be given a chance in this new, more responsible role. I remember the BBC once went out on a very thin branch when it hired James Hunt, who was a notorious womanizer. Unless there was some backlash from DCs previous comments, perhaps they were taken as a joke by those involved, despite how they seemed to those watching.

    I would have thought the opportunities for making inappropriate comments when locked in a small room with Murray Walker hundreds/thousands of miles from the GP would be fairly miniscule. :)

  • I would have thought the opportunities for making inappropriate comments when locked in a small room with Murray Walker hundreds/thousands of miles from the GP would be fairly miniscule. :)

    There is that :-)

    Still, they must have just been waiting for something to slip out.

  • Still, they must have just been waiting for something to slip out.

    Ooer missus.

  • My general thoughts are despite DC's past potential transgressions as a racing driver he deserves a fair crack at the whip in the commentary role. He has been fine as a pundit so far so I think he now knows where to draw the line.

  • Having now watched those two embeded videos, I think the James Hunt comparison is more worthwhile. DC maded those comments while he was a driver. He was the interviewee. Not a nice thing to say at all, but as a driver it was red bull, if anyone, who he answered to. It's a bit harsh now to condemn him in his new job. Perhaps for his comments against Eddie Jordan, but that's about it.

  • Having now watched those two embeded videos, I think the James Hunt comparison is more worthwhile. DC maded those comments while he was a driver. He was the interviewee.

    however, as also stated above the comments to holly were made as a pundit working for and paid by the bbc.

  • however, as also stated above the comments to holly were made as a pundit working for and paid by the bbc.

    Hmmm yep. One can only hope he was still learning to act as a normal person. It has been a couple more years now.

  • my opinion on sexism in the workplace does not matter, if line has been set, has dc crossed it?

    I am not sure DC said much on TV since the line was set for Mr. Grey ...

    But when we are talking about how offensive DC was here and there, what he meant and what he did not what should be said about all those grid girls, all those shots of sunbathing women on the yachts and on balconies during Monaco GP, all the scarcely dressed hostesses and models in the paddock and the after the race parties... So, where do we draw the line ?

  • To pick up on a few people's points, I do agree that the British media seem to be reactionary, prone to creating the proverbial storm in a teacup, and ultra-PC. It's one of the reasons I get most of my news online these days - so I can filter out the hysteria.

    I didn't find DC that offensive - a bit Carry On, as someone said, but I've had worse said to me.

    what should be said about all those grid girls, all those shots of sunbathing women on the yachts and on balconies during Monaco GP, all the scarcely dressed hostesses and models in the paddock and the after the race parties... So, where do we draw the line ?

    I find that more sexist than any kind of comments. I can't give an honest explanation why, though, it's purely a gut reaction. Perhaps because it's the "women as decoration", and playing up to the fact that men are supposed to be visually-wired and so on, rather than crediting them with a brain too.

  • But when we are talking about how offensive DC was here and there, what he meant and what he did not what should be said about all those grid girls, all those shots of sunbathing women on the yachts and on balconies during Monaco GP, all the scarcely dressed hostesses and models in the paddock and the after the race parties... So, where do we draw the line ?

    I've been wanting to get rid of Grid Girls for years. Valencia has had Grid Guys as well, but the whole thing, I find distasteful. It's the 21st Century, and this is still happening.

  • Grey & Keys had to go the tone was appalling, if for example you say the words in a jocular fashion the incident doesn't sound so bad .

    However the question needs to be asked and answered why were the SKY 2 targeted in such a fashion? I suspect that Grey had made enemies within the corporation, it was felt after 20 years the format needed a shakeup. So how to get rid of 2 very popular presenters (to their audience) and prevent their cross over to ESPN or similar. A very similar tactic was used to get rid of Rodney Marsh a few years back for his remarks re the Tsunami.

    I agree that is attempt to sue News of the World probably marked his card, note to all don't bite the hand that feeds you.

  • I don't see a problem with DC, people who do should just get a life and stop being so humourless and miserable. DC was a driver at the time (not a pundit), in the modern sport drivers are all told what to say and are incredibly dull because of this desire not to 'upset the sponsors' remember the drivers of the past, they had opinions and were allowed a sense of humour. I would rather live in a world where humans talk rather than corporate robots. For all of you whiners I feel sorry for you

  • DC was a driver at the time (not a pundit)

    pete, he was a pundit paid by the bbc in 2009.

  • This is the most ridiculous article ever. There are no similarities whatsoever. Try and do some proper writing instead of this tabloid nonsense,

  • I should probably link to it here because it's appropriate to this thread. Richard Keys has resigned and he's not happy about how the whole thing happened:

    www.telegraph.co.…xism-scandal.html

  • One part of this story that I don't think has been discussed is that Andy Gray was suing the News of the World for phone tapping. Quite why NOTW was going after a Murdoch employee I don't know or why someone who worked for Murdoch thought suing him was a good idea. It seems odd though that behaviour that had been acceptable to Sky for 20 years suddenly became unacceptable within days of him announcing that he was going to sue.

    www.independent.c…show-2178131.html

  • I don't see a great deal of similarity between the two clips. There are undoubtedly many examples of sexism in formula one but a chat between two mates (one of whom happens to be a woman) isn't one of them.

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